Balance changes in update 0.83

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Dark
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Balance changes in update 0.83

Post#1 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:33 pm

Here's a list of changes that I am planning for new update.
Feel free to drop your feedback.

Considered:

  • Slightly increased Smartgun range: 6 -> 7
    Reduced Smartgun reload time: 4s -> 3s
    Increased Smartgun accuracy: 95% -> 100%
    Smartgun seems to be considered weak compared to it's alternatives.
    It's tricky to balance machine guns while maintaining their niche usage and without making them too similar to one another.
    Smartgun's low clip size is supposed to make it ineffective with Gunner's ammunition and high reload time was supposed to encourage relying on other players' support. These two factors combined make Smartgun a little too weak though.
    With this low clip size, Smartgun needs faster reload time to have reliable efficiency.
    Increased range will help when supporting allies and goes well with Smartgun's unique no-friendly fire feature.
    100% accuracy is another small buff that makes it more reliable. No synergy with Motion Scanner is a side effect that will make weapon choices more interesting.
  • Giving Flamethrower a short startup time.
    Increasing Flamethrower's reload cost to 16.
    Flamethrower is a powerful and versatile weapon. It already has a lot of drawbacks to balance it out but it still stands a little bit above Gatling Gun, which I consider it's main comparison and competitor.
    I also don't like how a weapon this powerful can be so easily used in an instant. With a short startup time Flamethrower should also feel a little more tricky to use.
  • Frequently spawning rare enemies during Dropship siege on high difficulty levels.
    Dropship siege isn't very interesting on high difficulty levels right now.
    To make it more challenging and fun, siege will regularly spawn rare enemies one by one.
  • Rare enemy waves during Battleship siege on high difficulty levels.
    For reasons similar to Dropship siege, Battleship siege will now include periodic waves of selected rare enemies: Creepers, Giants, Leeches, Reanimators, Splashers, Titans or Zombie Soldiers.

Implemented:

  • Shredder placement no longer has cast time.
    Among other uses, I'd like Shredder to be deployed suddenly in emergency situations. Cast time has been a major issue with it.
  • Splasher's attack will now ignore most of player armor and Heavy's Shield protection.
    Increased Splasher's maximum movement speed.
    Splasher now has a long acceleration period.
    I felt that Splasher hasn't been much a threat lately. It's been tricky to balance actually. It was either too fast to be reliably countered or it was too slow to pose a threat.
    When encountered, Splasher will now be very slow but if you fail to get rid of him quickly, he will keep accelerating until most class setups won't be able to outrun it anymore.
    I also thought that Splasher's acid attack fits for the role of countering heavy armor.
  • Rebalanced Leeches.
    Leeches didn't feel like much of a threat. They were a nuisance and effective distraction but players just needed to keep shooting to get rid of them eventually. This kills all spotlight of this enemy's unique feature - life stealing.
    After rework, Leeches will recover all of their life with every attack. Players will need to either use fire against Leeches - which makes them totally helpless - or players will need to effectively dodge their attacks.
    To help players dodge, Leeches' movement speed during attacks was reduced.

Fixes:

  • Enemies spawning from Cocoons or Eggs destroyed with rockets, Claymore or Bomb will no longer have Cocoon Web buff.
  • Fixed High-Powered Shotgun's incorrect reload cost when reloading full clip.

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Re: Balance changes in update 0.83

Post#2 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:09 pm

Smartgun:
I see where you are heading with this and it sounds good -- for now.

Flamthrower:
The reason flame thrower is slight better than gatling gun is because the warm up for gatling gun made it plenty unpopular and "bad" in the eyes of many people. There are plenty rare enemies that need flame to be killed and since molotov is a bad choice, heavy can not take anything but flamethrower since gatling gun "rework".

Siege changes:
Hard to balance out, since we need a chance to kill them while the non-stop horde comes after us. Something like titans or webbers do tank or are annyoing, but a soldier might be to hard to handle for us since he has high range and damage and hides behind the hordes.
Perhaps if there is a "pause" befor or after the rare wave spawns could help with this problem?

Shredder:
Is actually is a nice change. It boosts the ability to make heavy a demo escort. Thou, he is still slow but demo needs to be fast...

Splasher:
Please tell me the splasher speed does get stopped if a zombie or object blocks him…


The fix for cocoons:
What do you mean "do not have the cocoon web buff anymore"?
Shouldn't they die instantly if being hit by a rocket or explosive in the first place?
I remember back in 2015 when the Agent was op... Rest in supplies, my friend.

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Re: Balance changes in update 0.83

Post#3 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:35 pm

Well great to hear that cocoons and eggs will be fixed.

However I am a bit concerned about upcoming changes espeically about leeches and flamethrower.

Leeches) Alone aren't a big threat thats true however they are really good at distracting and pretty dangerous with a horde. The only issue I see with your upcoming change is that we are going to much in flame direction started with rare enemies to cocoons and now leeches too?

Smartgun) Well good to hear but kinda not the main issue? Smartguns states aren't bad everything is nice just low clip size is not worth taking it. Even with your buff I won't consider smart as good...
Reduc the cost or give it a bigger clip size to fix this issue.

Flamethrower) Well thats a big topic again atleast for me. We are having a flame meta atm and while many players thing that ft is op you need to consider some aspects.

First it isn't that easy to handle
You can't shoot if something blocking your way like a corner or obstacle. Second you need to aim a click is a common mistake and only hurts your allies.

I only use ft on demo thats true it is kinda "op" but really you shouldn't underestimate it saying everyone can handle it yes but to master it is another story.

I predict that ft change will be similiar with gatling we will dislike it but there is no choice in this flame meta....

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Re: Balance changes in update 0.83

Post#4 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:38 pm

I don't feel like Smartgun is as terrible as you guys say. Other machine guns are more popular and general purpose but I think Smartgun does it's work for escorting. The main issue I had with it while playing it myself was long reload which required me to rely on my teammate too much to feel like I'm his reliable escorter. With low clip size I was out of combat too often for too long.
I don't want to mess with Smartgun's clip size or reload cost as that brings it closer to Assault Rifle (very supply efficient) or Machine Gun (good option for ammunition).
With 100% accuracy Smartgun should be a little bit cheaper and a little more reliable.
Btw, I feel like players underestimate the "no friendly fire" aspect of Smartgun. It's not only useful for newbies. You don't need that feature if you work well on your positioning but with it you don't need to waste time on good positioning. In some situations it allows you to react faster.
It also gives you more freedom to roam around your ally. When worrying about friendly fire positioning takes longer the further apart you are.

Flamethrower is a troublesome case for me. I definitely want to push back this FT meta. It shouldn't be the best weapon against Cocoons and rare enemies. Other options need to be equally valid.
If you have any ideas feel free to write them down.

The main counter against Splasher that I have in mind is setting him on fire as soon as possible.
I want him to catch up to and hurt players who are not able to take care of him in time.

With the new fix Enemies from Eggs and Cocoons will die instantly from explosives. Currently, they spawn with their health buff which makes AoE's reduced damage at maximum range set enemies free without killing them.

I'm also a little worried about Leeches being too dangerous when combined with other enemies. I'd really like to expose their key feature though and make them require a little more counter-play.
I'll try to test them out some more and try to find ways to nerf them somewhere.

I wouldn't be that worried about Zombie Soliders at siege. Players are usually behind barricades which should significantly reduce their ranged attacks.

Btw, I'm looking forward to seeing Sniper Rifle shine during sieges of rare enemies.
Other anti-rare enemy measures should become more useful as well: RL, Explosives, Molotov and FT turret.

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Re: Balance changes in update 0.83

Post#5 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:27 pm

Except sieges part I'm pretty much having the same picture as Lemon about the changes.
I would like to talk about endgame sieges a bit. They would definitely get more challenging with more rares and they should be. Currently sieges have low chance of getting overwhelmed even in hell, for that players just need to do a few things: heavy places shredder at main entrance, engi makes 2 doubles and rifle for 2 entrances and 2-3 guys shoot at enemies who come too close or behind walls. That's really just enough firepower if nothing got very wrong lately in game: monstro ruins siege, low supply and lack of agent might ruin it, some nest evos might make it hard (even then, often preparation for siege (especially pirates) is more risk than the actual siege). I believe shredder will need nerf at some point, but for now we will see if more rares will suffice. I'd suggest making waves of rare enemies for pirates and maybe anti as well.

Let's talk about leeches too. I had an idea how to buff them but I don't feel now what it was such a good idea. I really like healing with attacks for them, and I've got a wacky idea how to make it cooler.
Imagine Leeches use regular fast attacks normally, but occasionally (when damaged with very high chance) they'd carefully dive and try to land onto player's back (you can turn in the right moment to make it catch onto you from the front). After that they bite him over 2 seconds, slowing his move, attack and turn speed and healing off during that time to gently fly off after. Multiple leeches can land on the same player.
It's better if leech lands on your front, you can shoot it down yourself, it's no issue if you have a knife.
If leech lands on your back you can't take it off yourself so single player will have to deal with it healing and hurting you. If you have an ally you must turn so he can shoot it down from you, it's best for him to not use AOE weapon for that. Also if weapon misses it hurts you instead of leech.

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Re: Balance changes in update 0.83

Post#6 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:23 pm

Dark wrote:Btw, I feel like players underestimate the "no friendly fire" aspect of Smartgun. It's not only useful for newbies. You don't need that feature if you work well on your positioning but with it you don't need to waste time on good positioning. In some situations it allows you to react faster.
It also gives you more freedom to roam around your ally. When worrying about friendly fire positioning takes longer the further apart you are.


I don't think we underestimate anything at that point. The faster reaction time which you mentioned makes sense kinda sense however smartgun shoots slower than ar so well you can't consider that point at all. Not to mention that you described scenarios which are so seldom compared to the issue about frequently reloading duo low clip size.

Dark wrote:The main issue I had with it while playing it myself was long reload which required me to rely on my teammate too much to feel like I'm his reliable escorter.


I have the feeling you have the same view like most players who escort. As a gunner you don't babysit for example the medic your job is to pass him ammo mods and keep him supplied. A team relies on both players while one does the main shooting the escorter should focus on supporting his partner.

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Re: Balance changes in update 0.83

Post#7 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:17 pm

I think your forum glitched out or something…
Evo, could you delete the last 2 messages again?
If it's not possible (which I don't think) maybe Dark could do that?
I remember back in 2015 when the Agent was op... Rest in supplies, my friend.

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